God Supports AgJOBS

May 13th, 2007
by Craig
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If you are going to church this morning, and you are a member of any of the major Christian denominations, think about this when they pass the offering plate: some of the money you give to your church is probably helping to pay for a big ad campaign pushing extremist immigration views.

Behind something called Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform, described by The Washington Times as a collection of more than 100 evangelical, mainline Protestant, Roman Catholic, Hispanic and black religious and social-service groups and activists, the “extensive” campaign will push for amnesty and an increase in “guest wiorkers.”

You know, I don’t get it. Why are religious leaders always weighing in on matters of public policy? There isn’t enough spiritual need and human suffering out there to keep them busy?

Ask your priest how he would like it if a senator shows up next Sunday morning, stands up in the middle of the service, and begins yelling out his views on transubstantiation.

Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, told the Times, “As Americans, we must reject xenophobia and discrimination. At the end of the day, how we deal with immigrants is a diagnostic of the spiritual health of our nation.”

Samuel Rodriguez needs to get something through his National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference head: if he wants to run around diagnosing the spiritual health of things, let him diagnose the spiritual health of his own flock and leave the nation alone.

Better yet, let’s let God do the diagnosing on spiritual health, since that’s His role, and let’s let Congress do the law-making, since that’s its role, and let’s have the laws reflect the will of the people, and let’s let Christians get back to loving their neighbors–even the xenophobic ones, Mr. Rodriguez–as themselves.

Religious leaders are wildly out-of-line (and usually embarrassing) when they begin asserting political positions based on religious precepts. The idea of a nation having a spiritual health is an absurdity in itself.

There is no such thing as a “moral nation,” just as there is no such thing as a moral city, or a moral school, or a moral baseball team. Or, looked at another way, just as there is no such thing as a “scientific county,” or an “artistic state.”

It is a testament to the primitive state of modern religion that our religious leaders–those who so inappropriately weigh in on public policy, anyway–don’t seem to understand that.

Instead, we get this from Jim Wallis, founder and president of Sojourners, an evangelical Christian ministry and key member of the coalition: “…the Bible tells us again and again about the need to care for the stranger in our midst.”

Hey Jim, the Bible also tells us in Deuteronomy 23:18 that it’s ok to engage in usurious practices against strangers. In 14:21, God commands us not to eat anything that “dies of itself,” but it’s ok to sell it to “aliens,” instead.

Not to out-bible Jim, but with God giving us the green light to abuse the stranger in our midst financially, and sell him possibly tainted meat, it’s clear God backs attrition.

Craig Nelsen
May 13, 2007

=========================================

A lot of people replied to God Supports AgJOBS, so, in order to broaden the conversation, I am reposting the messages and my replies here.

I’ll put the authors’ names and cities later [never got around to that]. Please say if you don’t want your name and town posted. Better yet, if you register and login, you can repost and determine that sort of stuff.

Tags: AgJobs · Catholic · Christian · evangelical · Protestant · Sojourners · Wallis · Washington Times24 Comments

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24 responses so far ↓

1 NeoNon May 14, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Craig,

I totally agree with you.

I do not attend Mass weekly as I used to, as I feel it is so hypocritical.

In a voracious voice the Church encourages sanctuary, although they say not, they are doing it.

And, in another voice they are against abortion, but that seems to now take a quite position as bringing in all of the illegals is more important and the Democrats seem to be who they backed in the last elections.

Look what happened in Guatemala, with the Jesuits and their socialist/communist ministering.

I believe “God” is totally fed up with so-called “religious” zealots…do as I say, not as I do.

Churches/religion are political Pac’s and should lose their tax-free status.

Jane Horton-Leasman
GVJaneRealEstate@cox.net
2 NeoNon May 14, 2007 at 4:06 pm

Craig, You know you have hit the nail right on the head. Churches should be silent except to save a persons soul!!

William I. McGehee
3 NeoNon May 14, 2007 at 6:41 pm

Hey, Craig,
While I agree with the overall sentiment of your note I found a few flaws in your Biblical arguments. Some (minor) corrections might help you bolster your case:

Religious leaders have just as much right as you or I do to attempt to change public policy when a policy conflicts with their religious beliefs. If Pastor Bob feels that sex before marriage is wrong then he is allowed under the protections of the constitution to attempt to change public policy in regards to that issue. (Good luck with that one!) The bigger problem is that religious leaders weigh in on matters in which they are not well versed or they pick and choose passages out of the Bible to support their argument and ignore verses that oppose their position. Sometimes they also fail to include the broader consideration that the laws of the country we live in also are binding (Romans 13:1).

In regards to God diagnosing and the Congress making laws… God is often referred to the “Law giver”. It’s part of who He is.

“The idea of the spiritual health of the nation is an absurdity in itself.” Not really, no. Just like we can refer to the “physical health” or the “emotional health” of the nation in very broad terms I think we can also refer to the spiritual health of a nation. The questions arise, though, “what standard do we use to measure that health” and “who are we using as statistical samples”?

“There is no such thing as a moral baseball team”? You’re telling me that a team that always plays by the rules is not a moral baseball team when compared to a team that frequently cheats?
Your Scripture reference in Deuteronomy is off a bit. I think you are referring to Deuteronomy 23:20 not verse 18. The Hebrew word used in the verse (nokree) refers to someone who is not residing in your country but is “just passing through” so to speak. There are very few references in the Bible to this type of person.

Someone from another country who is now living among the natives of the land as a “resident alien” is a different word in Hebrew (ger). God gives a command against mistreatment of these “resident aliens” in Leviticus 19:33-37. Since we have laws in our country defining who “resident aliens” legally are then the protections offered to those folks who are here legally do not apply to the illegal aliens.

Deuteronomy 14:21 does not allow anyone to sell “tainted” (i.e. unhealthy) meat to foreigners (nokree again) it just established a higher level of “Grade-A” for the Israelites.

In closing, God has some very specific standards in regards to foreigners that some religious leaders are using too broadly.

Peace…

- Brady Stephenson
Helotes, TX
4 admin May 15, 2007 at 2:59 am

Gary Kelly

Happy Mother’s Day,

First, I am opposed to what Jim Wallis and other “liberal,” pro Democratic Party “religionists” are proposing.

Second, as a Christian am I suppose to remain silent while secular atheists are free to lobby and spew their venom? Am I to vote but not petition my congressmen? Am I to separate my Biblical worldview of moral virtue and courage with human intellectual worldly wisdom?

Third, THANK GOD America’s Founders based our Republic on Christianity, which America has enjoyed for over 200 years. However, since the silent majority of faith-based Judeo-Christians have remained silent since 1947 our Nation is in the mire of declining moral decay as well as allowing America to diminish its sovereignty, power, pride, and righteousness of which the world have EVER witnessed. So as we ALLOW the American way of life to be destroyed by NOT upholding EXISTING laws, by ALLOWING our National language and culture to be over run by “politically correct” - compassionate to everyone else at the demise of our own offspring - the greatest Nation on earth will become just another nation of drones suitable for an unelected UN Security Council. But if you want me to SHUT UP and sit on my hands while you fight the raging tide in your own little boat, then know this, I will NOT disobey my Lord after He implored us to be the salt and Light of the world.

What do you think drove America’s Founders to confront the British against overwhelming odds? Intelligence? Human wisdom? Perhaps it just might of been the moral virtue and courage that can ONLY come from the Biblical worldview that they DOCUMENTED and embraced. Without the same, America will be destroyed from inside, just as Lincoln and others warned.

Go ahead, take the challenge, see America’s Christian Heritage and then tell all America’s Christians to remain silent. Yes, there are some misguided “religionists” like Wallis who claim a Biblical worldview, but by their fruits ye shall know them.

http://www.earstohear.net/Heritage/

And on immigration, this Christian views are best described here:

http://www.earstohear.net/resources/immigration.html

You may also appreciate these warnings from real leaders of the past.
http://www.earstohear.net/Separation/warnings.html

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water….or perhaps you wish I should shut down and redirect EarsToHear.net to ProjectUSA.org?

In honor of America’s Founders and their “Patriots Declaration” (see following link), I will continue to proclaim their message with the same declaration without sacrificing, but drawing from my Biblical worldview.http://www.earstohear.net/Heritage/leaders.html

So does God have a position on AgJobs? In my view, He wants America to return to the Republic and sovereign voice and standard He guided our Founders into establishing? But as Franklin warned, “can we keep it?” Or as Franklin admonished, “I have lived. Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.” (Psalm 127:1) (See Did You Know? for his entire speech.

Or you can try and accomplish what Franklin said couldn’t be done by keeping God out of the affairs of America.

God Bless,

Gary Kelly

Author: Lessons of the Holy Spirit:
A Guide for Entering the Kingdom of God
And Discover Why It Pleased God to Hide His Kingdom from the Wise.
http://www.earstohear.net/LessonsOfTheHolySpirit.html
http://www.earstohear.net

Christian & American Heritage Resource
Challenging both secular “wisdom” and Christian “doctrines”
What is the Kingdom of God? Will our descendants know virtue?
5 admin May 15, 2007 at 3:41 am

I think many Christians and other serious religious types feel best about themselves when they “turn the other cheek” to be punished. Whether that’s the upper cheek (on the face) to be slapped, or the lower cheek (on the butt) to be kicked, I can’t say. Sam Harrison.
6 admin May 15, 2007 at 3:43 am

I don’t know who you are or how you got my name, but all people have the same rights and ought to have the same opportunities to express their views. That includes not just you, but also Samuel Rodriguez and Jim Wallis (and everyone else). I consider myself a ‘liberal’ Christian, I favor immigration reform along the lines of Wallis, I vote, and I will continue to speak out.

Is that a problem for you?

Best wishes,
7 admin May 15, 2007 at 3:44 am

Good one…perhaps Rodriguez can get together with the CAIR organization (Committee for Arab American Relations). The underlying issue is one in which well meaning Christians are getting coopted by folks with a more radical agenda. It happens to the Religious Right and also to the Religious Left as you just demonstrated.
8 admin May 15, 2007 at 3:44 am

Though I have agreed with you on most issues, I can not support such an anti Christian bias. You may be surprised to learn that many on your e-mail list are Evangelical Christians that feel that if Christians had not long ago rolled over and played dead, we wouldn’t be facing the issues we are facing today.

Read David Barton’s Original Intent.

I am canceling my subscription.
9 admin May 15, 2007 at 3:45 am

As an Evangelical Christian, Minister, and US Congressional Candidate, I can assure you that all of us do not feel that we should grant amnesty nor accept the decisions made by our current lack of Government. I would say in response to your question about why religious leaders weighing in on matters of public policy that we do so because it is our responsibility as Christians and Citizen’s of the United States of America.

Mr. Nelson

You seem to be stating that Christian Leaders should have no say in the future of our nation. Sir, though I fully disagree with the viewpoint of those leaders you show below, I do believe that every American, even we Christians, should become involved. If we do not, we will continue to lose our Nation.

It is because of the silence of these leaders that we now have schools filled with violence. It is because of their silence that millions of innocent lives have been taken though the atrocity of abortion. I say, they can not be silent, but let them become informed.

I have been a member of the Assemblies of God all of my life. I was credentialed with this fellowship for over 20 years. I can tell you that we believe in the Rule of Law. Please do not make general statements like this again in the future.
10 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:09 am

Craig,
A number of very different Hebrew words are conflated into the English words ’stranger’ or ‘alien’.

In some cases a stranger could be an Israelite, in others a hated foreigner.

Gen 37:1 � And Jacob dwelt in the land wherein his father was a stranger, in the land of Canaan.
was a stranger, Click to do Phrase Search on ‘was a stranger’ [04033] maguwr

Deu 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Unto a stranger Click to do Phrase Search on ‘Unto a stranger’ [05237] nokriy

Deu 14:21 � Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

it unto the stranger Click to do Phrase Search on ‘it unto the stranger’ [01616] ger

it unto an alien: Click to do Phrase Search on ‘it unto an alien’ [05237] nokriy

Click on the link below for even more info

Blue Letter Bible. “LexiConc Search for ’stranger’”. Blue Letter Bible. 20 Apr 2007. 13 May 2007.
< http:// cf.blueletterbible.org/search/lexiconc.cfm?
ss=stranger&searchtype=any >

Much of the bible has been sanitized by modern translators to make it more politically correct.

Write back to me if you want to discuss further.

11 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:26 am

Thank you for sending the article. You are right on. Have appreciated your material ever since my friend ___ pointed you out a few years back.
12 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:28 am

Craig, coming from a Conservative Baptist background and one who has a brother actually helping perpetuate immigration from Mexico, I can tell you that this is much bigger than most think. You are right on the money. If we could stop this madness we could in fact put an end to illegal immigration as we know it. Keep up the great work.
13 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:30 am

Raised Catholic but left long ago because of the distorted, unreasonable thinking of the clergy. They should lose their tax-exempt status. Even the good Samaritan didn’t impose his charitable acts on others, but left money with the innkeeper to pay for the (Pharisee’s?) care.
14 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:32 am

Atta Boy Craig,

It’s about time someone told Cardinal Mahoney ad others of his ilk that even the Catholic church laws teach to help the “downtrodden” , but while you’re doing it, always abide by the laws of the land. By giving sanctuary to illegal’s, he and other clergy are flaunting state and federal laws as well as their own church doctrine.

Shining a bright light on this subject is sorely needed, even if it hurts their eyes.

Keep up the good work,
15 admin May 15, 2007 at 4:37 am

“transubstantiation?” Is that when my hot dog bun morphs into flesh and blood?

They didn’t teach me that one in parochial school in Norfolk, Nebraska.

Later I learned “antidisestablishmentarinism,” which brings me to the question: How do we ask the IRS to revoke the 501 c 3 tax exempt status of those churches that do politics?

Craig, I really like the way you call a spade a spade.

[the sender and I share a home town]
16 admin May 15, 2007 at 5:54 am

I am not in favor of amnesty for illegals of any origin, so I’m against this “Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform” group.

But, if I may, there is nothing wrong with Christians getting involved in ‘public policy’, in fact we are to be ‘lights and salt’ where we are located and our Country was built around Christian principles and you and I have the freedoms that we enjoy because of that heritage.

Not that this justifies anything, but there have always been and probably will always be those who have ‘bleeding hearts’ for the wrong thing.

Nothing wrong with Christians being involved with politics. But there is something very wrong, in my view, with religious organizations using the money their members gave them ostensibly for religious purposes to insinuate themselves into the political process and support policies their memberships oppose.
17 Craig Mar 13, 2008 at 11:12 am

this is much bigger than most think

Craig, coming from a Conservative Baptist background and one who has a brother actually helping perpetuate immigration from Mexico, I can tell you that this is much bigger than most think. You are right on the money. If we could stop this madness we could in fact put an end to illegal immigration as we know it. Keep up the great work.
18 Craig Mar 14, 2008 at 10:07 pm

As an Evangelical Christian, Minister, and US Congressional Candidate, I can assure you that all of us do not feel that we should grant amnesty nor accept the decisions made by our current lack of Government. I would say in response to your question about why religious leaders weighing in on matters of public policy that we do so because it is our responsibility as Christians and Citizen’s of the United States of America.

Yes, weigh in as citizens. Be Christian citizens weighing in. Onward Christian voters!� But as Christians, love your neighbor as yourself. That’s a tall enough order you won’t need to fill your time agitating for AgJOBS in Washington.

These modern mega-multi-media religious/political leaders would have scandalized the faithful in the church I grew up in. I remember one Sunday, when I was a kid, just before an election, when the topic among the adults after church was whether something the pastor had said during the sermon could be interpreted as an endorsement of one of the candidates running for president. There was much debate, with Pastor Carlson’s defenders heatedly denying the comment had been any such thing. It was assumed by all as a given that an actual endorsement would have been highly inappropriate.

I admire that quality, and regret its passing. –Craig

You seem to be stating that Christian Leaders should have no say in the future of our nation. Sir, though I fully disagree with the viewpoint of those leaders you show below, I do believe that every American, even we Christians, should become involved. If we do not, we will continue to lose our Nation.

It is because of the silence of these leaders that we now have schools filled with violence. It is because of their silence that millions of innocent lives have been taken though the atrocity of abortion. I say, they can not be silent, but let them become informed.

I have been a member of the Assemblies of God all of my life. I was credentialed with this fellowship for over 20 years. I can tell you that we believe in the Rule of Law. Please do not make general statements like this again in the future.
19 Craig Mar 14, 2008 at 10:16 pm

the good Samaritan didn’t impose his charitable acts on others

Raised Catholic but left long ago because of the distorted, unreasonable thinking of the clergy.� They should lose their tax-exempt status.� Even the good Samaritan didn’t impose his charitable acts on others, but left money with the innkeeper to pay for the (Pharisee’s?) care.
20 Craig Mar 15, 2008 at 12:17 am

Though I have agreed with you on most issues,� I can not support such an anti Christian bias.� You may be surprised to learn that many on your e-mail list are Evangelical Christians that feel that if Christians had not long ago rolled over and played dead, we wouldn’t be facing the issues we are facing today.

Read David Barton’s Original Intent.�

I am canceling my subscription.

Another I’ll-show-you cancellation. Who cares? If you can’t distiguish between criticism of church leaders who use the money they collect from adherents to agitate politically for policies that are both harmful to those same adherents, and wildly unpopular with them to boot, and criticism of the church in general, then the ezine will be over your head anyway. Craig
21 Craig Mar 15, 2008 at 12:23 am

Not ‘all’ churches believe how you have described them. Maybe you need to find a good sound Christ centered church!

Phyllis, that was my point. Insofar as the churches that make up this amnesty coalition are concerned, they are precisely not acting religiously, they are acting politically, meaning, they are out of line.

A church has no business in this cesspool of a town lobbying with the likes of the Chamber of Commerce for bills written by immigration lawyers and profiteers. Believe me, to the extent any church that professes itself Christian is in league with our opposition on this, they are putting themselves at the very fringe of wherever the opposite of Christ-centered is.

I’ll guarantee you there isn’t a single pastor in that coalition who has read through and understands what’s in the STRIVE Act or has any idea what AgJOBS would do. Yet, some churches are taking your tithe money and helping the immigration lawyers betray the American people, including and especially the very people sitting in the pews and trusting the church leadership. They are being betrayed. How Christ-centered is that?

I’d further guarantee nearly 100% of the members of Congress have a far deeper familiarity with what’s in the bible than the familiarity any of these so called religious leaders have with the contents of even one of these pieces of legislation.

Yet you don’t see members of Congress running around as members of congress agitating church congregations against baby baptism and citing complexities in the tax code as� supporting their view. It would be wholly inappropriate if they did that.

Likewise, it’s inappropriate, and irresponsible, in fact, for religious leaders as religious leaders to be out there pimping for the immigration lawyers.

Re-read my post, please. You’ll see I was responding to an effort already underway and reported in a local newspaper, not criticizing churches in general. If anything, I am making an argument for re-centering churches on Christ. Ministers should be ministering, not lobbying.

Craig
22 Craig Mar 15, 2008 at 12:26 am

Good one…perhaps Rodriguez can get together with the CAIR organization (Committee for Arab American Relations).� The underlying issue is one in which well meaning Christians are getting coopted by folks with a more radical agenda.� It happens to the Religious Right and also to the Religious Left as you just demonstrated.

And also to well meaning donors to the ACLU, the SPLC and FAIR, and also to union members, and members of trade associations. There is no issue I know of on which the rank-and-file is so routinely sold out by those in charge as the immigration issue. Perhaps that is one of the negative results of putting a taboo on the discussion of a legitimate political issue, as there was on immigration for so long. Shielded from open criticism, the unscrupulous quickly take over. Long live the First Amendment! Craig
23 Craig Mar 15, 2008 at 12:49 am

All people have the same rights and ought to have the same opportunities to express their
views. That includes not just you, but also Samuel Rodriguez and Jim
Wallis (and everyone else). I consider myself a ‘liberal’ Christian, I
favor immigration reform along the lines of Wallis, I vote, and I will
continue to speak out.

Is that a problem for you?

Best wishes,

Bob Anderson
24 Craig Mar 15, 2008 at 12:57 am

Mr. Nelson-
Before you go spouting off Biblical verses, I suggest you do your homework a little better.� The verses I have listed here are in the NIV translation which is much easier to understand than the King James version.

Deuteronomy 23:20

You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess.

You’ll note, this verse says NOTHING about charging exorbitant interest, which is what makes charging interest “usurious”.� In fact, the Bible speaks AGAINST usury in this verse:

Nehemiah 5:10
I and my brothers and my men are also lending the people money and grain. But let the exacting of usury stop!
Deuteronomy 14:21

Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to an alien living in any of your towns, and he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner. But you are a people holy to the LORD your God.

In Biblical times, most people thought there was nothing wrong with eating something that had died naturally (killed by another beast, struck by lightning, etc.)� God� did not say it was wrong for anybody to eat that kind of meat, he said it was wrong for ISRAELITES to eat it.� This is one of the rules he made to make the Israelites stand out as different from other peoples.� He was not condoning selling or giving away� something tainted, just dead.�

Don’t assume, however, that every church leader is for illegal immigration.� I think you’ll find (if you were willing to actually RESEARCH it) that� Christians are divided in about the same proportions, pro and con, as the rest of the U.S. population when it comes to their opinion on illegal immigration.

You wrote: “Religious leaders are wildly out-of-line (and usually embarrassing) when they begin asserting political positions based on religious precepts. The idea of a nation having spiritual health is an absurdity in itself.”�

I find your lack of knowledge of (or failure to acknowledge) history to be amazing. Our country was founded by Christians who definitely had moral “direction” and united with fellow Christians that thought similarly.� Most of the laws of our country have are based on the laws originally set down by God, not the least of which are� the Ten Commandments. These Judeao-Christian beliefs on which our country was founded are a large portion of what has made this country great.� I think, again, if you would bother to research something before you open your mouth you might be embarrassed about what you were planning to say.

You wrote: “let’s let God do the diagnosing on spiritual health, since that’s His role, and let’s let Congress do the law-making, since that’s its role, and let’s have the laws reflect the will of the people, and let’s let Christians get back to loving their neighbors–even the xenophobic ones, Mr. Rodriguez–as themselves.”

This bothers me more than anything else you said. Christians have the same right to voice their opinions and be a part of the law-making and governing process as any other citizen of the U.S.� We do not lose our rights as U.S. citizens because we are Christians. You, who purports to hold the rights of U.S. citizens so highly, should realize this.�

Often, passionate belief in an ideal is a good thing. You, however, have apparently crossed over the line of reason. It seems that you do not have the ability to think rationally. Although I am against illegal immigration and especially granting citizenship to illegal immigrants, I will not continue to be a part of your flawed opinions any more.� I will be unsubscribing to your newsletter.

Yours truly,

Ted Hils

Midland City, AL

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